Check out Part 1 of our interview with Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Dowling-McClay explains professional identity formation, imposter phenomenon, and the role those play in the lives of student pharmacists. She also shares her own journey to becoming a professional pharmacist.
Transcript of the Show
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the community.
Dr. Michele Williams
Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University, Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Michele Williams, assistant professor and director of academic success.
Stephen Woodward
And I'm Stephen Woodward, marketing and communications manager. Today we are talking to Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay, assistant professor of Pharmacy Practice at Gatton. Her interests include women's health, substance use disorders, and public health. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Dr. Dowling- McClay.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Thank you. I'm excited to be here to talk with you all.
Dr. Michele Williams
I've learned so much from you. One of the things that, I think is a favorite topic of yours is professional identity. And so I thought maybe we could talk about that a bit today. And, just kind of, in general, what what is professional identity and what role does it play for student pharmacists?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Sure. I think it's a really interesting topic. And it you're correct. It's something I've enjoyed bringing into the classroom. And honestly, I'm still learning about it. So every year when I first come to the topic again, I have more to add. I have some new perspectives, so it's one of those fun ones where it just keeps evolving. But it is a concept that really exists for any profession that's out there.
So that includes pharmacy, then other health professions, then even things outside of health care like lawyers. really any group that is united by a the career that they do or something they have in common. And so the process of professional identity formation for student pharmacists is going through this internalization of thinking, acting and feeling like a pharmacist.
So it's really the idea that they start out as a student. They want to become a pharmacist. But what is this process that they go through to actually be a pharmacist by the time that they graduate and go out into their career? And so I think for a lot of students, and it would be, myself included, when I went to pharmacy school, I knew I was going through this four year curriculum.
I was working really hard, but I kind of felt like I was just a student. And then at graduation or the day after, I would be a pharmacist. Like it was just a blessing. Which is, yes, flipping the switch, but actually there's evidence that shows that it's a continual process that really starts from the moment that someone is welcomed into a profession.
And for us, that really starts when we accept student applicants to come to Gatton.
Dr. Michele Williams
Wow.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So it's. Yes. And it could even be earlier, for students that have worked in pharmacy environments or had other exposure even before school. So it's kind of it may start at different times for different students, but definitely by the time they come here for orientation, they're all on that journey together. And like I said, it's an internalizing process.
So it's something that they're always doing, even if they don't actively realize it. everything they're doing is contributing to how they're going to use thought processes to solve problems, like a pharmacist. It is their sense of belonging. So feeling like they're a member of the profession. And that's something in recent years we've wanted to try to bring more to the forefront, to help students be aware this process is happening.
That awareness can also help with those times. They might be struggling with do they belong or feeling discouraged, things like that.
Dr. Michele Williams
That makes so much sense. And and I imagine there are times when a person really starts to feel like a pharmacist or really feels like they're thinking like a pharmacist, and then times when they don't feel like that, or they feel like they're, they're pretending to be a pharmacist or you don't really, you know, like maybe imposter phenomenon.
Yes. They feel like they're they're pulling off a, you know, an act or something.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes, yes. And unfortunately, I think that is a pretty universal experience. It's going to hit at different times for every person going through this process. But part of that process is going through those feelings of doubt and coming out the other side and realizing that you do belong in that profession, and you actually are a member of that profession, and you're not just, portraying that.
Dr. Michele Williams
Not fooling people.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Right? Right. You actually are. Yeah. And so, this has been studied some in pharmacy and a whole lot in medicine and nursing, and it's I think the scientific field is actually still learning more about it, too, but it seems to be a common experience or a common way of looking at how students get to that end point of being a member of the profession.
Dr. Michele Williams
Yeah, it's good that that's being studied now, because I'm guessing that people, you know, for a long time thought maybe they were the only person who felt like they were pulling something out.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes, yes. so those feelings of possibly imposter phenomenon or just feeling like somehow you don't belong, that can lead to a lot of doubt. And it's also it can be very isolating. And so something we try to do in the program is help students realize that they're not alone when they may be struggling with those feelings.
Guaranteed there's other people in the room who are or have or will feel the same way they are.
Stephen Woodward
That's really interesting. So what got you interested in that topic to begin with?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yeah. So it honestly was not something I had ever heard about as a pharmacy student. So looking back, I know I went through the process, but I didn't know there was a term for it or that it was kind of a collective idea. That was a formalized concept. So it really wasn't until I became a faculty member and started to also interact not just with pharmacists, but with educators, and start to hear more from that perspective about what this process is like of joining a profession.
And started to especially through going to like pharmacy education conference days, I would start to hear these buzzwords P-I-F professional identity formation. So once I started hearing it again and again, again, I felt like, okay, there must be something here, but I need to know about. And so I started digging into it, going to talks about it, looking up resources about it.
And the more I read it, just really clicked that this is something like I've said, it's always happening for our students, whether we acknowledge it or not. And so I think for me, the way I approached pharmacy education, I really like to kind of lift the hood on the car for students and not have things be totally behind the scenes, but really bring them out front for them.
So just like we have all of our educational outcomes that we must achieve for our program to be accredited. I really like to talk to students about those and not have them just be some background noise that's affecting what students are doing in the curriculum, but have them actually know about them, how they relate to the courses I teach.
And so same thing with professional identity formation is trying to help them acknowledge that process even while they're going through it.
Stephen Woodward
What do you think causes that imposter syndrome for health care professionals?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think it has a little to do with a disconnect that happens. So any new experience we're going on in life, there's a point where we don't know what we don't know. Like we're we're just completely new to it. We don't even know what's kind of missing from our perspective. But then when we start to get more involved in that experience, we're learning some things, but we're also gaining perspective about all the other things we haven't experienced or haven't mastered yet.
And so when there's that imbalance, I think that's part of what weaves into those feelings of being an imposter. Like, oh my gosh, I do not fit this picture. I can't think like this. I can't solve these problems. where it's really just that they're learning. This is part of being the professional, but they're still growing to that final endpoint.
Dr. Michele Williams
Do you think that, when students compare themselves to other people, that fosters some of that feeling of being an imposter, that they think, oh, that other person knows the answers to all of the questions, or they made this grade on an exam or, they're both their parents are pharmacists, and they've been working in their family pharmacy for five years.
Dr. Michele Williams
Yes. What am I doing here?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
I think that's actually a huge part of it. And I think kind of how our education system overall and kind of our society works right now is that young people are measuring themselves against each other and against role models all the time, and a lot of things they have to achieve to even get in the door, pharmacy school have to do with that, measuring up and achieving a certain bar.
And so I think part of it is coming in. That's a pretty common mindset. And that's also something you can't just turn off. Suddenly you have to kind of work through, framing things in a different way and not just always being in competitive mode. And then I think also students in the school, they're surrounded by people that hopefully they want to emulate.
So their faculty members, their preceptors, and those people are, you know, fully developed pharmacists and they are the role model. But students may not always see that they have to take stepping stones to get to there. And it's it's they may be shocked to know how much their own professors probably have struggle points in school. And I didn't always know all the things, or at least, you know, seemed like that from the outside and went through that process to that's great.
Dr. Michele Williams
Thank you so much for sharing that. In addition to the PD course that you and I co coordinate, I know that you teach in some other courses as well, and you referenced that a minute ago. What are some of the other courses in what you teach?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
So I think I have a really fun job at the College of Pharmacy, because I get to pop up in some kind of random places throughout the curriculum. And yes, I love working with the P1 students in our PD series. I love being early on in the educational journey with students, but for some of my other interests, I get to be involved in those too, so students will see me pop up for women's health topics, both early on in the self-care course in P1 spring, and then much later in the pharmacotherapy series.
Coming back to some more complex pharmacotherapy topics around women's health. I also usually have a group or two in the communications course series or in the AP program, or both. And then another really fun thing I get to do is I do take fourth year students on rotation. So I have an academia rotation. It's an elective that students can sign up for.
They get to spend a month with me at the college, but it's not like just another month of going to school for them. They really get to see behind the curtain on what we do as educators. And so that's my whole goal of that month, is they essentially are with me doing my job and seeing all of the moving parts that go into their everyday student experience
Dr. Michele Williams
That's great.
Stephen Woodward
So recently, I know you were speaking to some of our incoming P1 students, and you suggested that they reflect on the question, why are you here? And then you asked them to post that answer somewhere, that they can see it throughout pharmacy school. So I wanted to ask you, what is the why that led you to become a pharmacist?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yeah. So this to me, it's a really fun exercise and I wish someone had advised me to do that when I was starting out pharmacy school. But honestly, someone may have said that and maybe I didn't listen to it at the time. You know, so hindsight has created more wisdom here. for me, it sometimes it's hard to put it into exact words.
And this is actually why I encourage students to take time to kind of write it down. for me, though, it comes to a deep sense of caring for the community and wanting to find my spot in caring for the community and making the community as healthy as possible. And actually, before this conversation today, I dug down through my old files and I found my essay applying to pharmacy school because I was also wondering, you know why I say now is informed by having graduated pharmacy school and done a lot of things after that.
What did I actually say when I wrote that essay? And so much to my relief, I used pretty similar, terminology back then. I was at the time had started working a little bit in a community pharmacy to kind of ensure that it is what I wanted to do with my career. And I talked about how doing that job, I had never felt more connected to the community and a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the community.
And so that I has really carried through as a thread in how I picture my job today.
Stephen Woodward
Okay. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. Michele Williams
Thanks. What do you think inspired that desire to be of service to the community?
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Well, individually, for me, I think it is really rooted in my upbringing. So my dad is a pharmacist. He's he's actually retired now, but he worked in a community pharmacy position in our hometown for close to 40 years. And so it took me a while to come around to pharmacy is what I was going to do. But my whole time growing up, just going out in the community with my parents, going out to dinner, going shopping without fail, he would always run into someone that knew him from the pharmacy and he was their pharmacist.
And most of those conversations in the community were not health related, but just he was well known and I could see how everyone really liked him and held him in high esteem because of the care that he gave to them. And so for me, and I come from a small town, so kind of that community mindset was really baked in off of what do we do for each other.
Because we all know each other.
Dr. Michele Williams
This is in Montana.
Dr. KariLynn Dowling-McClay
Yes, yes, small town in Montana. and so I think, you know, I probably didn't realize it all was at the time, but those repeat interactions building up kind of made me realize if I also want to do something meaningful for my community, this is a really powerful way to do it.
Dr. Michele Williams
Wow. That's great. Dr. Dowling-McClay, thank you for joining us today. It was a pleasure speaking with you and learning more about you.
Stephen Woodward
Thanks for listening to White Coat Radio. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. To learn more about East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, visit us at ETSU.com/Pharmacy or follow us on social media at ETSU Pharmacy. We'll see you next time.
